Vacation Catch-Up And Old Haircuts

Craig 0:03

You're listening to Basket Traffic. To day in this episode, we are going to delve into the latest hit from Netflix, Adolescence. With its groundbreaking approach to storytelling, this mini-series out of the UK explores the world of incel culture among boys and young men. We hope to get to the essence of adolescence. Alright, we have a big day today.

Susie 0:42

Welcome back.

Shawn 0:43

We do.

Craig 0:46

We're gonna relive our adolescence.

Shawn 0:48

Ooh, nice. Yeah. So that means I'm gonna get a wham t-shirt on. And uh and what else am I gonna do? Get some Vans. Actually, actually have Vans, so that is me reliving my adolescence every day right now.

Craig 1:06

Well, my haircut, I remember big wavy one side, and then on the other side, jeld's spiky side.

Shawn 1:14

Y eah, flock of seagulls hair.

Susie 1:16

Then you had the tinted McDonald M. The M with tint at the front.

Craig 1:21

Yeah, that was like when I could actually grow hair.

Shawn 1:24

Yeah.

Craig 1:24

It was nice.

Shawn 1:26

God, I miss being a mod. Maybe I'll go back to being a mod. I just like saying mod.

Susie 1:31

Yeah.

Shawn 1:32

So we have uh we have not seen each other in a while. No, it's like we're we're back after a long vacation. A long vacation. You guys were actually on a vacation.

Susie 1:43

On a vacation.

Shawn 1:44

We did a little RR. Yeah. Got out of the country. Mexico.

Susie 1:48

In Mexico, sat so long on the chair, I needed a cushion. Couldn't sit on a chair.

Shawn 1:54

That's good.

Susie 1:55

It was really good.

Craig 1:55

Well, yeah, when you get bed sores when you're lying on your lawn chair, you got a problem.

Shawn 1:59

Did Craig make it out of the room or did he just stay in the listen to podcasts?

Craig 2:03

I was just editing the whole time.

Shawn 2:05

Just editing the whole time he was in there?

Susie 2:06

He did make it out of the room, but with headphones in and down at the beach.

Shawn 2:11

Yeah, until the diarrhea kicked him and then he went back.

Susie 2:15

Thank God Manny was there. He knew.

Shawn 2:17

Manny.

Susie 2:18

Just wave him down. Manny would come over. Cerveza.

Shawn 2:22

Manny's your guy in Mexico.

Susie 2:24

He's great.

Craig 2:24

Yeah. We were thinking about what great stories we could tell. But do we have any?

Susie 2:29

We didn't really

Shawn 2:29

You saw some whales.

Craig 2:32

Supposedly blue whales, but we don't believe him.

Susie 2:34

Yeah, we did take a day trip to Mismaloya, a little town just sort of south, 20 minutes south.

Shawn 2:40

Um it's next to Mr. Maloya, uh I believe. Right.

Craig 2:44

Where they filmed Night of the Iguana...

Susie 2:46

in 1967.

Shawn 2:48

With Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor.

Craig 2:50

Damn. I never even heard of the movie before.

Shawn 2:52

Or them, probably. Yeah. Do you know those actors?

Shawn 2:55

The name sounds familiar. Okay. Yeah. But what I what did strike me as interesting is that when we're at the beach, it's kind of a crescent-shaped beach. He says, he points backwards and there's the hills that go up. He says, that's where they filmed Predator. And I'm like, damn, that was cool. I would actually like to go see. And you can apparently still see the set. Get to the Chappa. Most famous line from Predator.

Craig 3:17

I loved Arnie.

Susie 3:19

Yeah.

Shawn 3:19

Yeah. He was good. So you were more excited by the Predator location than the um I don't know that either one of us has seen Night of the Iguana, but and you have to imagine that in 1966, nobody was there.

Susie 3:33

So when, or very few people.

Shawn 3:35

So when the two biggest stars in the world go there in that time, that would have been a big deal.

Susie 3:40

Oh, huge. They built them a house that had a bridge.

Shawn 3:43

I I think we talked about that.

Susie 3:45

They built them a bridge so that they could meet up without the press and all that stuff, shooting them and so a couple other movies, something they filmed something else, or they needed the bay to be empty of all the boats because it's just full of um guys that are renting out the boat for either, you know, an hour, fishing, snorkeling, whatever. It's jammed and they're like on you. Like I give you five Mexican minutes, okay? Five Mexican minutes, I'll be back in an hour.

Craig 4:09

Yeah, he was good.

Susie 4:10

He was funny. We went with him. But um, so for this other movie, they gave everybody 125 American dollars to be gone for the day and just take your boat somewhere else. And gave like there's like a hundred boats in there. Yeah. Yeah. So that's crazy. Good moneymaker, but really beautiful, beautiful scenery, stunning. Um and great food from our little almost the best food we ate.

Craig 4:37

Kind of half an hour drive south of Puerto Varata.

Shawn 4:41

I want you to know that even though you didn't ask me to, I looked after your house the whole time you were gone.

Craig 4:45

And we didn't give you the key.

Shawn 4:47

Yeah, you got in through the laundry room window. Yeah, blastered. Yeah. It was great. It was only two parties, so we we took good care of this place.

Craig 4:56

Well, thank you. Yeah. That's very kind of you.

Shawn 4:58

Kind of like the neighborhood block watch guy.

Susie 5:00

Perfect.

Shawn 5:01

Yeah.

Susie 5:01

We everybody needs one of you.

Shawn 5:03

This is kind of weird because I got a new mic stand here, so I'm can look directly now with uh at you guys without being blocked out by the uh the uh Canada Shuttle Space Arm.

Craig 5:13

It's you do me a favor, you let me know how nice that moves, because a good boom arm is.

Shawn 5:18

Greg would like you to talk about. Yeah, is that what you want me to do? You want me to slide the mic stand around? That's weird. Yeah, if you need to. Like I'm Stephen Tyler or something here.

Craig 5:26

Actually, the height is just perfect, too.

Shawn 5:27

Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you. I'm happy. I'm I'm very happy so far. Excellent. So we'll see. We'll

Why Netflix Adolescence Hits Hard

Shawn 5:34

see how this goes.

Craig 5:34

So Adolescence.

Shawn 5:36

Adolescence.

Craig 5:37

This is a a show that's being podcasted many times over. We're gonna add to the to the story in whatever way we can. And uh I think we have lots to talk about.

Shawn 5:48

So Well, we do. Yeah, how do you want to start? Well, I can just say um it's the most watched Netflix show you know uh globally. It's like a hundred and fourteen million views. Really? Of all time.

Craig 6:00

So that's what we're saying.

Shawn 6:01

Of all time. Um first of all, if you haven't seen adolescents, then stop listening. Exactly. Because like uh this is gonna be major spoiler alerts for you. So basically, a family, uh family's world is turned upside down when 13-year-old Jamie Miller is arrested for murdering a schoolmate and uh the charges against their son forces uh their parents to confront uh their worst nightmares. So adolescence has been framed as a timely and eye-opening social commentary about raising kids today. You know, one that explores the ideological and social forces that children face in school. And I couldn't think of two better people to talk to about this because you guys both in formerly in education. Formerly, yeah. I just did air quotes there. Oh yeah. Uh and you have three daughters that you uh they're just recently out of school, right? Yeah. Most of those are all. So this talks about tech technology and social media and how it's shaping their relationships with parents and kids as well as their values, expectations. And and this particular character, Jamie, has been bullied and radicalized uh by incel culture.

Craig 7:13

Yeah, yeah.

Shawn 7:14

And I didn't know much about incel culture and all this secret emoji language, because you know, I'm old. And uh so this really this show, and I watched it twice because it's only four episodes. It's like four different windows into this tragedy. And um so this really like brought up a lot of questions for me, and it really stayed with me, like like I'm sure most parents would be so freaked out by this, uh, but it really raised a lot of questions. I had to go online, of course, and look up a lot of stuff about this incel stuff.

Craig 7:48

It does cause anxiety because it does elicit a response that's deeply concerning. Um, and I think that uh on the one hand, there's some legitimacy to that. I think also on the other hand, we got to remember that it it is a show, it is dramatized in a way that kind of is supposed to do that. Yeah, that's right. I think that's just generally good writing and good acting, not to mention what makes this particular show unique, four one-hour episodes, each episode done in one full shot. No edits. I still feel like they didn't do it. That couldn't be true. But if they did do that, and that's an honest statement, and there's no one countering going, yeah, secretly going, no, no, no, we kind of did, then that's that's it's a hundred percent true because I've taken the time to watch the behind the scenes

How The One Shot Is Done

Craig 8:36

stuff.

Shawn 8:36

Okay, and I'll I'll tell you, I didn't have Netflix for the last two years because of the COVID and the writer's strike. There was just a lack of content coming out of that. And you know, my the price went up for Netflix, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna get off Netflix for a while. So I've just came back to Netflix, and mainly because I was so curious about this show, and I didn't watch it because of the topic. I watched it just what Craig talked about. I wanted to see how they pulled this off. Yeah. Because this is live theater.

Susie 9:04

Yeah, yeah.

Shawn 9:04

This is the choreography going on behind the camera, it is insane. It is, yeah. This is one camera being passed off like a baton between different camera uh operators.

Susie 9:17

So not a little as they're as they're walking down the hall and punching the door code and then they hand it off and they go into a different or going up the stairs and they're raising the camera and handing it.

Shawn 9:27

And it's not just being handed off, it's being unattached from the get like the vest, the steady cam vest, unattached and then attached to the next vest so that they can walk with it. And you see all of this stuff, it is unbelievable.

Craig 9:40

It's impressive. What was the episode? Was it two or three where they the school scene? Two was it two?

Shawn 9:46

Yeah, 300 extras in that scene.

Craig 9:48

Which again, you you have high school students performing in a way that they cannot screw up, and that continuity must be there, and they do it in such an amazing way. And what I liked about that one, and what I want to talk about is the thing that really, first of all, I can see why you watched it twice. You have to. A first, you have to watch it just from the perspective of the story, and then watch it just from how they pulled it off. Because it's filming two separate impressive things. And I found myself, yeah, I'm watching like the storyline, but I'm also from my technical brain side is going, that's really cool. How do they do that? And the one particular thing that really amazed me, if you're gonna do an entire episode that's uncut, you are now having to move locations. So you're getting into a car, the camera, and I've seen those how they did that, like you were describing. Very cool. But then within the building of the school, and then they transitioned as they were coming out of the school, and then all of a sudden the camera starts weirdly taking flight. Drone over I think it's the city the town town, and then the scene is still uncut, but it transitions back to dad at the at the murder site. Yeah.

Shawn 11:08

They attached, they took the camera, unattached it from the guy, the guy's vest, and then attached it to a drone all while shooting. To a drone, and then the drone raises up.

Craig 11:18

Because it's like a it's a ground scene, and all of a sudden the camera starts elevating, and I'm like, that's I don't see any kind of like weird, you know, CGI transition things going on. No, they attach it to a specialized drone so seamlessly then it takes.

Shawn 11:33

But this is where the live theater thing comes to me because there's a crew that is so engaged, not like other shows, where cut, we're gonna do take eight, take nine, now we're gonna get coverage from this side. And we you know what I mean? Like this is all like people running behind the camera to make sure that everything is like so. They're really a part of the show. Like it's a good more so than anything that's ever happened before. Yeah. So they had three weeks to rehearse each episode. You know what I mean? So they would rehearse for three weeks. Yeah. Then they would go and they'd shoot it, and they'd shoot it multiple times and get the best take out of the whole run. So that's how they did it. Oh so the second one is the second show they got in the third take, I think. That's what I read. Second or third take is the one they used.

Craig 12:18

And so when you say take, they that means they run through the whole thing.

Shawn 12:22

There's no cuts, right? So they run through the whole thing and they go, okay, well, I think we can maybe something didn't go properly with the choreography of the movements or the somewhere.

Susie 12:32

Somewhere there was something you

Real Time Filming Changes Everything

Susie 12:33

could do better.

Craig 12:33

So before we move on to that element, I just want to uh emphasize something else that really struck me about the the nature of doing that. When you have uh a single shot, the camera is moving from room to room, to building to building, from building to car, back to building. Did you find that it changed the whole nature of the feel of it? For example, uh this is the thing that struck me. When I watch traditional TV where you cut from this scene and you go to this other, you know, group of people and however the storyline folds, you're you got so you're so used to the cuts and the kind of transitions you're used to it. You don't think anything of it. But in this case, it almost felt like you were there because it's one full scene and it changed an audience member of that live theater.

Shawn 13:22

Yeah, it made it real because it's happening in real time, it made it that the the the violence and the tragedy of the whole situation like uh shocking and real to me. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like it felt so grounded in reality because like you said, Craig, when you're cutting and you're using music and you're cutting to other you know, uh uh shots, and then you're doing a close-up and then you're doing a far away, it's it's fabricated. Yeah, you see, you see the production value of it. That's right. Right?

Craig 13:51

And I I really came to just find myself feeling a little A, a little bit unnerved because we're not used to that. We're not used to holding in a position, but and yet the constant camera maneuvering, which I like Susie, I I know you don't like the kind of constant kind of swing.

Shawn 14:07

That's what I was thinking about. I was thinking about you, Susie, because uh, and for those of you at home, Susie doesn't like uh that motion thing with with the cameras and the born identity, that stuff. That's how I call it. What was the movie that you had to leave? Saving Private Ryan.

Susie 14:22

Saving Private Ryan. We had gone out for a lovely Vietnamese dinner. Then we went to the bottom.

Shawn 14:27

Oh, beautiful to barf that up.

Susie 14:28

Went to the movie theater, and um Craig likes to sit in the middle with the optimal sound. And so we were in the middle, half three quarters of the way up, the best spot for him. And I knew ooh, it was it was minutes in because that whole entry to saving private Ryan is that.

Shawn 14:47

Oh, it's 20 minutes of like just shaking.

Susie 14:50

The sweat comes up my back, and that's 15 minutes to puke.

Shawn 14:53

And you got it down to the a minute. Oh, I at least it warns you. Your body warns you.

Susie 14:59

So I made it, actually, I didn't actually I made it to the bathroom to a stall, and then yakked all over the stall and the toilet. And that was in the first 20 minutes. So you're sitting in the seat, and I come back, I've wiped the sweat off my face, rinsed my mouth, and I stood and watched the rest of the movie at the side of the.

Shawn 15:19

It was like, Where's Susie?

Susie 15:20

And I'm like, Oh, there she is.

Shawn 15:22

It's terrible. I'm not la I'm not laughing at you because that's terrible.

Susie 15:25

So it wasn't as bad for me. And you know, we have a pretty big TV, so it is I was and not a couple times I made a comment, like, oh, I don't really like this, but it didn't get it didn't get bad.

Craig 15:36

It was just I guess what I'm saying is that that's what what's so neat about how they managed to do this. There was motion, but it it wasn't so great. Like it was this kind of a really calm shifting and almost had a melodic movement to it.

Shawn 15:49

Well, it I think it was almost part of the the personality of the show because my favorite episode, I won't get into it this moment, but was was the episode three with the psychologist. And and the camera slowly and slowly moves around that table as they're going back and forth. Yeah, and it's almost building that building that scene. You could never do that if you didn't shoot it that way. And you see them getting to those places as actors by the end because they have that time because it's in real time, it's theater to get to where they need to go. They're not cutting every you know two minutes and saying, Okay, well, let's do it this way. It's happening real. And I I want to talk uh just quickly a little bit about um because Stephen Graham wrote and created and started this, right?

Acting, Writing, And The Why

Shawn 16:36

So um, and how amazing that is like to be the actor, the producer, the writer, and all of that. And he he did it with uh uh Jack Thorne, that's his writing buddy. And then Philip Berantini directed it, and he's also an actor. They were all in Banded Brothers together, all of like these shows coming up. Um but the acting, you can just give these guys the Emmys now. Oh, I mean, that's what I think. I mean, I think it's gonna win the best drama series, it's gonna win. He's gonna win for best actor. Uh, and let's not forget the uh the the kid, right? Yes, I mean how how great is the kid? Owen Cooper. Owen Cooper plays Jamie Miller, probably 15 years old when he shoots this at the time. Never done anything professional. Oh, is that right? And his first time on camera is is is the episode three with a psychologist. That's the first one they shot, episode three. They didn't go in order.

Craig 17:26

Right.

Shawn 17:26

So episode three, first time on camera is that that's impressive.

Susie 17:31

I felt I did not even the video of him the CCTV video when he was beating her up, I didn't believe it. I believed him. I didn't do it.

Craig 17:42

I didn't believe it. Interesting, why is that?

Susie 17:44

I don't he was very convincing, and I just felt for him and I felt you think that was a kind of motherly nurturing thing going on there, kind of response. I don't know.

Craig 17:51

I just a good point because I was thinking of the same thing, and I'm like, I'm I I'm sitting there kind of going cold, going, Do I believe him? Or and then I realize this is not a kind of who done it fucking show.

Shawn 18:03

It's a it's a it's a why done it.

Craig 18:04

Yeah, why done it show and and you're like okay, but still I my my kind of investigative mind wants to know is like partly because when you get a kid like that who's knocking it out of the park and so believable. In fact, I I came to not like him. And I think that just is a was a I don't know why that is. I came to not like him. The scene that you're talking about, episode three in the room with this psychologist, he was kind of given off Erin Doherty, by the way, we'll just shout out to her because she's amazing, dude. She he was given off uh sociopathic uh elements, and I know that this has been mentioned by other people, and other people have said, no, I don't see that. And yet that's where I thought he did an amazing job. Because is he a kid who's troubled? Like the because this is the storyline, the circumstances around this. Because if he was a psychopath or a sociopath, and this is a story about a kid who's just a sociopath and he's gone and done something terrible, but this is not a story about that. It's about incel culture, it's about lonely boys, it's about boys who isolation.

Shawn 19:14

Susie just touched on a point there with the m the maternal thing that you were feeling. Because I think that the psychologist was tapping into that a little too. Uh in some respect, she was doing her job, but she was also sort of feeling something for him. Yeah, and then at there's a scene uh towards the end of that that actual episode where she gets up uh after he's had this rage moment and goes to get a coffee again and then comes or tea and comes back and she has that breathing moment where she realizes you know she looked terrified. She looked terrified, and that this she he did do this, and that that's the reality that she saw. Like even though she saw it, yeah.

Susie 19:51

Yeah. But the mother, like his mom was completely shut out of this whole thing. The he chose the father as his oh, and the term is not coming to me, but his his adult that would be in the room with him. Yeah.

Craig 20:05

Appropriate adult.

Susie 20:06

Appropriate adult.

Shawn 20:07

And and his father never once hugged him, never once touched him, never once was I just want to say really quick, though, that it was very important for Stephen Graham that the parents weren't alcoholics or abusive. Right. They wanted to say he came from a somewhat normal family. Pretty much. So then you can just go, oh, well, his dad beat him. That's right. Or his dad was an alcoholic. None of that was he didn't want that. He wanted that family to be kind of semi-normal. Yeah. And yet, whatever that means.

Craig 20:37

Well, exactly, right? Like a a couple are our family that's just trying to do the best that they can under circumstances. You got the feeling that uh Stephen Graham wanted to create a lot of conversation.

Shawn 20:49

Yeah, because there was uh uh, you know, he had read about um kids with knives in school in England, and then and and he'd read about a story about this, and then there was like two, three, four, five more instances of this happening in in England with kids taking knives to school and stabbing somebody.

Susie 21:06

Wow.

Shawn 21:07

So that's kind of where it came out of.

The Family After The Arrest

Shawn 21:09

All I w want to say is I thought, you know, I I've already said I loved episode three. What I loved about episode four, which I think you were gonna go into there, was that it was like this trying to be this normal family was 13 months later, if you see at the beginning of it. Yes, and them, and it's his birthday, the dad's birthday. So they're trying to have somewhat of a normal day, and they keep sort of being dragged into the reality of their situation, which is he gets a birthday card from Jamie, which kind of elicits a response from from them. And then there's some graffiti on their van, which they've got to deal with. Yeah, right. So that brings them back to the reality, and then they get in the van and they start talking about their first date. Well, that's right. And aha. Yeah, yeah, and uh these normal things that and the daughter's saying, Ew, ooh, I don't want to hear about you French kissing my mother, ooh, and all of this. And then Jamie calls, right. There's all of these things where they go to the hardware store and the guy recognizes them. That's right. And it's like, hey, I think your son's actually innocent. You know, and he's he's one of those.

Craig 22:09

So on that one, I thought that was interesting. I was asking myself, what do you what was the writing purpose or thinking around that, that what I'd say late teens, early twenties, yeah, kind of kid. I got the feeling that that kid was also supposed to be another one of those incelks. That's what I thought too. And that he was going, yeah, he hey man, he's innocent. He's he's our he's in our tribe, he's one of us. The the story was supposed to say that they're they're out there. Although I don't have any expertise in this area about incel culture, but it strikes me as interesting that it's not a true story.

Shawn 22:44

No, it's just based on uh, you know, uh some events.

Craig 22:48

To go back to episode four, they've gone through so much. It's they're kind of drowning in it. But they're also trying to like tread water enough just to keep breathing, keep going.

Susie 23:00

Trying to have a normal thing.

Craig 23:02

They have the neighbors who I thought that was so brilliantly done. I like you don't actually lose. Yeah, they're not actually talking, they're not coming in. There's they're they're afar from the whole camera feel, but always watching, but always watching, and I thought, and never actually in focus. I I thought that was really smart. They didn't actually kind of like focus in on that person, the neighbor on the cross the street. I can forget the name. Eileen. Eileen, yeah. Good Paul. Yeah, that was really well done. And yet we all have been there, you know, that sensation that someone is they just they're not necessarily bad actors, but they're kind of caught into this drama. And then they get into the car, they're driving to the hardware store, and they're trying. Again, I'm struck by the fact that he's driving a car. It's not him on a I don't think it was.

Shawn 23:54

I don't think it was on, you know, those um it is actually, but oh it is well no, it's not on it. The the steering wheel's on the roof. This guy's driving on the roof. They can't drive, actually drive while they're doing the scene.

Craig 24:06

So they're okay.

Shawn 24:06

So then if they get in an accident and you know, yeah. So they're driving down the road, but the steering wheel's up. This guy driving it above them.

Craig 24:15

Interesting.

Shawn 24:15

Sitting on the roof.

Craig 24:16

Okay. That was a question I had about that. Post hardware store, they return and it's just grief. It's grief.

Shawn 24:25

It's it's well, he's triggered with that guy. You see the audio drops out, it's muted, he can't hear any of the stuff.

Craig 24:32

That's something I want to talk about because the way they portrayed dad is interesting uh by the by the end of it. Dad feels like he should have known. Like I think a lot of parents would have feel that way, right? Mom uh Mom is interesting too where they portrayed it. She's I don't feel like she fears her husband, but let's she's she's com does the a lot of accommodating in that relationship, I feel like. But she's also loving and she's consoling, and and you just got the sense that there's this kind of blue-collar family that's just just done the best that they can.

Susie 25:03

Yeah, because everybody has to go to work and the kids have to figure out how to entertain themselves.

Craig 25:07

Yeah, and survive.

Susie 25:08

And survive. And and you know, I kind of thought a little bit about our kids that you know, the the oldest with when the devices first started, and I believed her that she was just reading on her device. And mostly she was, that she was just reading, but at the same time, you can't really get mad at yourself.

Shawn 25:31

This is what I wanted you guys to speak to, because you know, I don't have kids and you have gone specifically through this.

Phones Follow Kids Home

Shawn 25:37

Yeah. Because when we were in school, when you left school and you went home, you left school. You you you were with your parents or your friends, and school was done until you went back the next day. Now, when you go home, you're still at school because of social media and all the ways that you can stay in touch with everyone in school. And how do you deal with that?

Susie 25:58

How do you Well, our our kids were not that Were they bullied?

Shawn 26:03

Did they come to you about being bullied online at all or in any way?

Susie 26:06

Not our kids, but it it is how um principals spend a majority of their time in elementary school right now is dealing with the online stuff that's happening and how kids are attacking each other uh outside of school, in school, on the weekends. It's super problematic.

Shawn 26:25

And I found in episode too that you see all the phone kind of things that popped up throughout that episode with the two kids outside being, you know, reprimanded for having their phones, and then there was every like 10 minutes through that episode there would be a reference to put your phone away, or you shouldn't have a phone here, or it was interesting. Watching it the second time, I caught all of those things.

Craig 26:47

As someone who has taught in Canada, watching that scene where they enter the school, holy driggered for you? Well, you know what? It it it didn't, it was it was eye-opening. I was uh listening to Chris Williamson, and he happened to have a guy who was actually an expert in this field about incel culture and so on and so forth. And uh they both they both were from the UK and uh they both had experience of similar schools, and they said there's a lot of things about that adolescence uh show that they were kind of questioning or picking apart. But he said the one thing that they really nailed is the the nature of the school. Yeah. And I just like whoa.

Shawn 27:28

Wow, it's kind of helplessness of the teacher. What am I gonna do? There's three, there's so many of them. The guy that kept coming and going out of his class.

Craig 27:36

So they made a point. That show made a point. It was a a real job at the schooling system.

Susie 27:44

So it's like a raw, open vision of what it is like.

Shawn 27:48

A wound.

Craig 27:48

Yeah. And what did they say? I think they even said that like as they were leaving. It's like, this is not uh this is not education. I think they said something like this is a holding pen or something along those lines.

Shawn 27:57

Well, they were very effective with communicating um messages like, for instance, the detective or the uh what they call them, DI.

Craig 28:04

Yeah.

Shawn 28:05

Uh his son going to the school, yeah, and his son pulling him aside and saying, I'm gonna decode this for you and let you know what this actually means. Well, that actually makes these emoji language.

Craig 28:16

That's a really interesting point here, actually. And I know that was the nature of the show here. There was no, you saw no parent-son-daughter connection that was wholesome. Yeah, not all of it was strained, disconnected, sad. And that made me feel sad. It actually made me feel a little bit claustrophobic. And the the the reality is that we know just on balance, that's not true. We we know that there's gonna be um connections, and so I think what they were trying to achieve, they were very successful.

Shawn 28:51

Yeah, I think they achieved it. And I told my parents about this show, and they're you know, my parents are older, and I thought there's no way in hell they're gonna like the show or get it, because I mean they're old school, you know, TV show kind of so I mean there's no edit, there's no it's one shot, they're gonna be like off of this show in two seconds. They loved it. Interesting, and they loved it so much that it scared the shit out of my mother. She and my my brother has a young uh daughter. So my mother immediately called and said, You have to watch this show. You have to just for her, for her sake. Don't let because of the you know, because she was so freaked out by the message of the film. And of course, you know, my niece is like three, you know, two or three, and and she's already got a phone in her hand.

Susie 29:31

Everybody does, you know, and like playing with the phone and playing that's because they just see your the parents with the phone. Like yeah, we are the problem to the small children now. We are addicted to our devices, and the children see you and they just want what you have.

Craig 29:46

Yeah, yeah.

Susie 29:46

So, I mean, you know, I see it all the time.

Craig 29:48

And no, no, scrollers and that's why I think the show was successful because it's really drawing conversation around

Incel Culture And Andrew Tate

Craig 29:54

this. 100%. One thing, so let's just just dip into the whole nature of this, the root of what this show is about, which is incel culture. They they make an a reference to Andrew Tate. Uh yeah, which is interesting because big online presence. I have I had a question about this with my own students. Um, I said, listen, like I'm curious uh on this matter. And and to be honest, this was before I even understood the concept of incel. I hadn't even heard it before. And for those who are listening, incel is a portmanteau, which I also learned. It's that's when you take two words and you blend them together. So incel is involuntary celibacy. Yeah. Celibate.

Shawn 30:34

Is it sorry, is it like 80% of women are only attracted to 20% of men?

Craig 30:41

Well, and I was having a conversation about that.

Shawn 30:43

That's the stat. I don't know if I believe it or not.

Craig 30:45

I had a friend of mine who said, um, well, actually, I think it's more like 95.5. I kind of went, oh, that's interesting because I never like as a as a young kid in at 15 or you know, in high school, it was a different world. I wasn't thinking about these things. I I was thinking, oh, she's hot. Uh, but you know, I don't know if I'm gonna have any chance to, you know, with her.

Shawn 31:11

And I'm like Craig, that's my mother.

Craig 31:15

And so the idea where you know, us boys would then go to some place and ruminate and become angry, it just didn't exist. It just wasn't, and I think that's a product of the online world where where you can go find, and that's what the the studies show, you can be they can go and find their like-mindedness, and girls have their own version of it, by the way, which is really interesting. And so you get this polarization of incel culture, and so you get this kind of really both sides for both girls and boys, an anger. And and so I'll just read this uh kind of bit here, which might be very helpful. Uh, it's just a couple of sentences, and it's from a journal article called Help Me Please. I need practical advice, which is a qualitative exploration of social support dynamics among incels on online forums. And so uh for example, they say incels rationalize their lack of sexual experience with women by postulating the existence of a sexual market, quote unquote, sexual market controlled by women, where they believe women exclusively choose quote alphas or quote Chads, men who exhibit hyper masculine traits, dominance, confidence, and high erotic capital.

Shawn 32:34

Manosphere.

Craig 32:35

That's another and so you know, to go back to the conversation I had with my students about Andrew Tate, when they brought up Andrew Tate, I'd never heard of this guy before.

Shawn 32:46

Kickboxer, big brother contestant, huge online personality.

Craig 32:50

Tough guy kind of idea.

Shawn 32:52

And now he's uh accused of murder and rape and all sorts of terrible, terrible stuff. So exactly.

Craig 32:59

So when the before that, before those accusations, my students were saying things like sheepishly going, yeah, there's this Andrew, like they mentioned Andrew Tate. The girls generally are going, he's a misogynist, but the guys are drawn, these young boys are drawn to a certain presentation of masculinity. The studies that I have done this, and I'll read this actually a little bit, and I think it really contributes to the conversation about kind of why that is. It says most remarkably, an overwhelming majority of incels self-assessed as experiencing depression and or anxiety compared to about a third of the general population self-assessing in this way. There's also elements of autism that some people believe that you know, autistic uh spectrum disorder, uh, kids tend to kind of be drawn more to this. And yes, while there is elements of that, these kids are also self-assessing their own ASD. That's right. Yeah. And that's because they've taken like the list of things that kids who are on the spectrum, which is, you know, maybe a little bit socially isolated, maybe a little bit socially uncomfortable. And and perhaps it's not true. Uh I don't think there's been enough studies on this that that kind of like nail this part, but maybe there's an element of that, or maybe there's kids who are just down, who aren't autistic, who are just feeling like they're part of this group and they found a family.

Shawn 34:25

Yeah. And it's and like my they want to belong. They want to belong. And and it's a powerlessness that I think you feel at 13. You're always being told what to do. And there's a a rage that can kind of build, you know, and and I think we saw that in this show. And especially in episode three, when when he he stands up and knocks the hot chocolate off the table and tells her, You don't control me, you don't tell me what to do. You see that rage come up. Yeah, there's that frustration, you know.

Craig 34:51

Yeah. And that's where I thought he did an amazing job because you're looking at him, and that I actually remember that. Like I went.

Shawn 34:58

It scared me. It scared me too. It scared, it scared Aaron Doherty, too. Yeah, the actress. Oh, yeah. You know, you could see it.

Susie 35:05

That's why he was so believable.

Craig 35:07

Yeah, it was a powerful statement. And because he's this he's a scrawny little kid, and then all of a sudden he kind of like transforms into this kind of full-grown man, even though he's still in this boy bot, and you're like, Whoa, you see the future. Uh this is what could be.

Shawn 35:20

Yeah. Funny story, really quickly, and it's not not a serious story, but they had to switch the hot chocolate to chamomile tea because when he knocked the hot chocolate off, it would, of course, go on the floor, and they have to rotate that camera around the floor and it would get sticky. So they had to switch it to chamomile tea so that they could, and then when they would, she would leave the room and the camera would follow her, they would all be cleaning up the floor, and then she'd come back in, right? And like so, can you imagine? Yeah, yeah, it's like a swan gliding on the lake, it looks beautiful, but underneath the the the legs are swimming, paddling furiously.

Craig 35:58

And I remember having young men mentors, that's an important part, you know, especially when you when you you know are raised uh with a single mother.

Shawn 36:07

It can be rough. I mean, uh, I remember going to theater camp and it was brutal, dude. Uh just kidding. Just add a little comedy in here for this is getting pretty heavy here. Yeah, yeah. No, joking. Yeah, tell me okay. No, no, I never went to theater camp. I didn't get in. All right, so this is how you start a fire, Broadway style. Five, six, seven, eight. No kidding. I can relate to the Cub Scouts. We did Cub Scouts where we grew up and in our little town in Lions Bay. Yeah, and and lots of girls I know did girl guides.

Susie 36:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah, just for the cookies, but guides all the way through, right? To range right to 18. You did. I did.

Craig 36:49

Because with now technology and with parents being frightened about the idea of perceived dangers, uh, you now have kids who and they mentioned this in this show. He was up in his room. I thought he was safe. Well, he is safe. Up until one in the morning, watching.

Susie 37:04

He is physically safe, but he isn't saying isolating them from the experiences of the real world, thinking that they're keeping their kids safe, and then they're getting all the way so deep into this incel.

Shawn 37:19

Like it's and they're under your roof, and you're right downstairs, and there's you have no idea that that's that's what really stayed with me about this, because of course I'm old, and so social media for me is I go on there, it's like a novelty. Hardly it's a total novelty. Yeah, I go on there to say happy birthday to somebody and that's it.

Susie 37:41

Yeah.

Shawn 37:41

Or uh, you know, to to check something and then I'm off. I don't live on social media, I have no identification with it. I haven't even posted something on Facebook for like six months. That's right. Like, like, so I am so removed from that world. So watching this really made me feel old. And it made me feel like, wow, I really don't know what's going on. And and especially the emoji stuff when they started decoding all of that, because an emoji, what, it's been out, what, 20, 20, 30 years, whatever an emoji, 20 years. So for me, it's like, you know, a little sunshine at the end of the or our prayer hands that they that's what an emoji is to me. And then I'm like, oh, there's a secret language. So that was the part that was interesting because it had the different meanings to different different colors of hearts. Well, the beans, the kidney beans, or the ex uh exploding dynamite, which was the incel culture kind of uh like that part.

Craig 38:35

I wonder if if that there's a that's rooted in some kind of um truth.

Shawn 38:38

It is. Is it? I it is because I kind of looked it up a little bit.

Craig 38:41

Oh, is that right? So it is okay. So again, like you said, someone I looked it up on the internet. Not that old. At one o'clock in the morning alone.

Shawn 38:51

Yeah, isolated. And and my mother's like, we've got to really do something about Sean. He's in his 50s. I'm worried about him. He's watching too much TV.

Susie 39:09

Oh but those emoji languages, are they worldwide language? Yes.

Shawn 39:14

Everybody knows what well, everybody under a certain age.

Susie 39:18

So it all means the same thing. It's not just like in that community and that small part of it.

Shawn 39:22

Well, I'm sure that there's variations to each thing, but you a parent can look at a phone with all those those images, those emoji and and go, oh, I'm not, you know.

Susie 39:32

I sound old now. Are you sure? Is it worldwide? Are you sure?

Shawn 39:36

We are old. We don't sound old. We are we sound, we look, yeah, we feel oh my back. Yeah.

Craig 39:42

Uh every generation I've taught, every kid uh has its own language, its own vernacular.

Shawn 39:47

Uh I spoke Klingon in high school. So I mean, that was what was cool then. That's right. It's still cool now.

Craig 39:54

Well, I guess that's and then that's why you're living with your mom still. But what I've noticed with social media is it's the volume of words. When it used to be localized where kids use certain language, now it's internationalized, and there's so many more of them. I I find myself having to say, What did you mean by that? And they're like, Well, that's what this means this. I'm like, oh my god, there used to be one or two words. It's now like a dozen words, and not only that, symbols. So if those symbols the fucking Da Vinci code over here.

Susie 40:29

It is.

Craig 40:30

As adults, as and uh as parents, you you are disconnected because the language has changed. And the the the the volume of that or the the diversity of that language is we haven't kept up. No, well, and it it's an important thing.

Susie 40:44

No one has time to work and you've got to deal with your own stuff, and and it doesn't seem important to us.

Craig 40:50

No, does that? No, no, it's just a few words, and they do and because it's like code, quite literally, it could be saying another language, and we'd be just going, what? And oh, okay, whatever, you know.

Shawn 40:59

And it's like those kids in that crazy rock and roll, yeah, almost, right? Like, like yeah, yeah. I also loved, because I'm a Sting fan, the choir singing Fragile at the end of episode two. Yeah, they pull up to the crime scene and you hear the kids singing, uh, the choir singing on and on the rain will fall. And you know what? The last verse of that is sung by the actress that plays Katie, the girl that's murdered, that we never really see in the show. But that's her voice singing fragile. Ha fragile. That's the actress. I thought that was really uh powerful, and it was a beautiful touch to that whole thing. It wasn't the the last episode they did it. That's what I loved about it. They did it the second, like it was like each episode is its own movie, it's its own window, right? It's its own, it's incredible.

Craig 41:48

First one was about the DIs.

Shawn 41:50

It was about the arrest and uh what happens in the police station when something like that happens. Yeah, the process. The process. The second one, we go into the school, we get the school side of it, the kids, how the kids react, how the the third one is the psychologist, and it's just them and that really. It's just that. And the fourth is the family. Is the family 13 months later trying to have some semblance of a normal life and move on and something, you know, and keep the the reality of that situation keeps coming back, you know. It's incredible. It's really a masterpiece. Whatever you think of this, maybe I could see people not liking this, that not being their cup of tea, not but Which is a weird statement in itself if that were true. But it is. There's always going to be somebody that doesn't get it or doesn't like it, or think it's fear-mongering, or think it's, you know, whatever it is.

Susie 42:37

But have no children and they're not going to be able to do that. Well, I have no children.

Shawn 42:41

I have no children, it scared the shit out of me. It made me think uh rethink everything, actually. But I thought it was a masterpiece. I thought it was one of the best and and it yes, the technical thing really added to it for me. I just thought, wow, how ambitious is it to do this?

Craig 42:59

But the balls to think that the balls to think you could do this.

Shawn 43:01

Oh, we're gonna get in a van and actually drive to the fucking store live, dude. And like, I mean, who thinks that?

Craig 43:06

Yeah, but imagine pitching this to the studio too, and throwing paint, undoing the paint can, and then throwing it paint and in a scene, and and then I I kind of got stuck on that. I'm like, so how did they do that? They have to clean up the paint if they're doing a second and the third take, like yes, they do. And and that, I'm like, fuck, that's where I was like, you have to watch this twice because I'm so preoccupied. Now, if you're not nerdy like that and you don't really care and you're just focused on the storyline, once is enough. So maybe we should finish on that note. And that is the relationship with uh, because this really is a story about father's son. I think that's probably what it is, right?

Shawn 43:45

I think it's a story about all sorts of different stories.

Craig 43:49

It can elicit a lot of conversation about the other thing.

Shawn 43:51

Yeah, about different different things. Yeah.

Craig 43:53

But I think I think if I if I'm going to take license, I believe the producers were thinking. Okay, we could bring mom into this uh um interrogation room, but no, this is a story about dad. They kind of implied that dad was chosen because Son was Son maybe n thought that dad would be a little bit more understanding or forgiving. Son knew Sun knew he did it. He he chose dad because he needed dad's approval and you could see that when uh dad's watching the the the video of the first time of his son beating down this girl, you gotta go, oh, how do I even cope with this? This is too real now.

Shawn 44:40

There there's every gamut of emotion there. That's right. It's anger. What did you do to to me and the rest of us by doing this? And and and then there's the sadness of how much pain that his son must have been in to do this.

Craig 44:55

Brutalized by his own father, and he was gonna not be that guy, and yet now he has a son who ends up being a murderer.

Susie 45:03

Holy damn so by stepping back and trying like letting your kid be safe in your own house, he has actually given him the reins to go deeply into this terrible world where he does this terrible thing. And I I like I think the dad is in shock the whole time.

Shawn 45:22

I I completely agree. And he played that. You can't Stephen Graham, man, like what an incredible actor. I'm sure he's just incredible. He stayed with me. That performance is still like in my bones right now. And the most heart-wrenching thing for me about that whole show, and it's still in my head too, is that after we see uh the kid with the psychology psychologist, and he, you know, he all he cares about at the end of that whole episode is do you like me?

Craig 45:50

That's right.

Shawn 45:50

And he's screaming it as he's dragged from the room, but do you like me? Do you like me? Do you like me? He's banging on the windows, getting do you like me? That's all that's how important being liked. That's the message I got. This this helplessness, I just want to be liked. Why are you like you know?

Craig 46:06

That's uh that's something's missing. Yeah. There's a there's a a void.

Shawn 46:10

That was the the the the little thing that sparked all of this was this this lonely, isolated kid that wanted just to be loved and liked, and you know.

Fathers, Sons, And Missing Role Models

Craig 46:21

Well, I appreciate art. I appreciate those people who produce things like this. They allow us to have conversations, and what's nice about it is they allow us to kind of reflect on where we are today in this world. But we have to always caution ourselves that this is not necessarily an actual accurate story that's going on in your community or or or my community, or or even come from country to country. It's a very complex thing, but I think it does speak to in broad strokes the these very important issues. Also boys don't seem to have again is this is this true, but it sounds like the the numbers are that boys do not seem to have a a same level of male role model, it's not being supported in television anymore. In fact, the opposite is is the case. And I think if if I'm a if I'm a young man, if yeah, I'm a young boy, really, if I'm growing up in this and I'm looking around going, who is my role model? I'm not seeing a lot. Okay, because Andrew Tate we know is toxic, and he really represents that kind of toxic masculinity. But quite honestly, I hate the terms manosphere because it's too easy to now label someone in this part of the manosphere. And what it does is it puts you in a box and it doesn't allow for people to go, oh, wait a minute, what's going on in this kid's life? Like, like somehow he's some he's part of this kind of nefarious group of kids that are just kind of naturally evil, which is such a disingenuous approach, but that's what happens when we label incel culture manosphere. And I'm not about saying that that's not misogynist, that it's not dangerous, and it absolutely can be, especially if it's inculcated and and and fostered in a way that leads to dangerous actions. But I think what we have to do is remind ourselves where is this coming in the first place?

Shawn 48:11

My role model was uh the Fonz. So I mean, he could just hit a jukebox and turn it on. So I had great uh role models. Awesome. That was cool, wasn't it? Yeah, I remember that show. Can I just ask a favor? Can next week, can we just do the Fast and the Furious 10 or something like that? That's right. This is getting real heavy.

Craig 48:28

Yeah, that's true. Fair enough. So, Susie, what would be your takeaway on that one? On that show.

Susie 48:32

Well, I and I didn't actually know about the whole incel part when I was watching it. Um, and and truly, I I didn't believe that he did it until the third and until with the psychologist, and I saw her fear and I saw him in a different way.

Craig 48:50

And I was just like, Yeah, it it You really wanted to believe it's innocent.

Susie 48:54

I wanted to believe that he was innocent. I wanted to believe that this sweet kid isn't gonna go and kill somebody.

Shawn 48:59

And I think that that she, like I said before, I think the psychologist did too. Yeah. In a certain way. Even though this is her job and this is her, there was a part of her that wanted to believe that this wasn't real.

Susie 49:09

And then she shook when she came back, like when she went out for that tea, and then you it yes.

Shawn 49:16

It was so well done that walk down the hall and then the walk back into the room.

Craig 49:21

It almost had elements, it's not a horror movie, it's not a horror flick, but it had elements of that where that feeling sticks with you. Well, he's dread. Dread. He's banging on the glass as he's everywhere.

Shawn 49:35

And he didn't do that for that. Was the first time he did that. That's the I think that's the third or fourth run they had at it. First episode they shot was that. I said that, but but he never banged on the glass. So so Aaron Doherty, the actress, said that really conjured up some emotion for her because he hadn't done that. So he banged on the glass that take. And and you can see it goes to her right after the banging on the glass, and she's crying. Yeah. She's got those are you know, tears coming down. There's no fake in that.

Craig 50:03

15-year-old boy actor.

Shawn 50:05

15-year-old boy first time, first professional job, never been on. You know, well, the director gave him, would be give him tons of notes, and he would say, Are you listening to me, the director? Because he would just be sort of in his little zone and goes, Are you listening to me? I don't know if he's getting any of this. And then he would do it and he'd get every single note that the director would give him, and the director would go, Holy shit, dude, this kid is on, man.

Craig 50:35

I have a feeling he's gonna have a bright future.

Susie 50:37

Well, yeah, yeah.

Shawn 50:38

Well, they're gonna get some Emmys out of this for sure. Yeah, Golden Globes, Emmys, they're all coming. Yeah.

Craig 50:44

Yeah, I I you know what? I feel like we didn't probably spend enough time talking about Ashley Walters, uh D.I. Luke Bascombe.

Shawn 50:51

Yeah, I know there's so many great performances in this.

Craig 50:53

I I feel like we do need a knot. Uh he was really good. He was fantastic, and his relationship with his son was also just equally just beautifully acted and just awkward and equally awkward and not good, terrible.

Susie 51:06

Yeah like what kind of you know it almost feels like rot.

Craig 51:12

And I don't want to make that statement. I don't want people to go, oh my god, that's true.

Susie 51:16

It's just well, it's depressing how kids are if this is really happening. You know what it goes to my mind?

Shawn 51:24

It's disconnection. I think the theme was disconnection all around. But for the parents, the kids, the teachers, right? Disconnection, the cops.

Craig 51:30

But the chicken and egg thing, we grew up in a time where we watched shows that were just playful, frivolous, lighthearted, lighthearted, and well, yeah, and you kind of want that becomes your model. The thing is about the kids, the kids are watching shows that are so more real, so more realistic, so more authentic and someone, and so much, much better produced.

Shawn 51:54

Yeah, entertainment got pretty serious, but it got serious, yeah.

Craig 51:57

And it got it got dark, violent, yeah, it got exactly way more violent. And it's dealing with all these real issues. And I kind of wonder is that ultimately good for society?

Shawn 52:06

Well, reality TV came in too, don't forget that. Yeah, and it changed the entertainment landscape hugely. That's right.

Craig 52:14

I just kind of wonder, I I would love to do a little control of research here where we would, you know, create a group of kids raised on a type of kind of So you want to adopt a bunch of children and we're gonna raise them together in here in the studio.

Shawn 52:29

Right.

Susie 52:30

We're done.

Shawn 52:31

He's taken this a little too far, man. Jesus Christ. This guy wanted a fucking full-on photo shoot, uh, which we did, by the way, when you're in Mexico out on the lawn. I I brought in like a tiger and like a fan machine, a wind machine. A photoship. It was like a Beyonce thing out here. Nice. Your neighbors are like, what the hell is going on?

Craig 52:50

Well, be sure to send us the photos. I'll incorporate them. We'll have to bring the photographer back. I'm still not you know, anyway.

Shawn 52:57

No, I know you got to approve everything.

Final Takeaways And Wrap

Susie 52:59

So final word. Can't wait to see more by um Stephen Graham.

Shawn 53:08

I mean, Stephen Graham, that's his writer. He's this, I mean, he was big. He's been around forever. He's done, you know. Do you remember Stephen Graham? He was in the Pirates of the Caribbean movie.

Susie 53:18

No way.

Shawn 53:19

He's he's Johnny Depp's little sidekick in four and five. But he's been in so many great things. He was Al Capone and uh Empire Boardwalk, uh Boardwalk Empire, sorry.

Susie 53:29

And if he did this and they're not gonna do any more around this, imagine what the next thing.

Shawn 53:35

Oh, that's what I mean. He's like the sky's the limit now because this just took him to the stratosphere. Not just as an actor, but also a producer, a writer. He created this, he wrote uh everything for this. So I mean amazing.

Susie 53:48

Awesome.

Shawn 53:48

Great to see you guys. I'll see you in four months. I'm going to Mexico. Until next time.